[See All] Paul Shipwreck Song. Here is the 1 Cor 15:5 text: “and that he appeared to Cephas (Peter), THEN to the Nowhere did Paul ever say that Jesus’ resurrection was in the flesh… always in … Engaging Discussions about Early Christianity, Since April 2012, this blog has raised over. They’ve *already* heard the “Jesus story”, else, they wouldn’t be Christians, would they? The twelve are a mystery. [4] This, according to the gospels, was the stance of Jesus, who defended it in an exchange with the Sadducees: "Those who are accounted worthy ... to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they ... are equal to the angels and are children of God..." (Mark 12:24–25, Luke 20:34–36). Please ask only one question per comment posted. The vision elevated this feeling of guilt, and Peter experienced it as a real appearance of Jesus, raised from dead. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know – God knows;"[17] Elsewhere in the Epistles Paul speaks of "glory" and "light" and the "face of Jesus Christ," and while the language is obscure it is plausible that he saw Jesus exalted, enthroned in heaven at the right hand of God. But more important, the issue you’re concerned with is whether *Paul* meant “cousin” when he said “brother,” and Paul was writing in GREEK, not Aramaic, and in fact it appears that he did not even know Aramaic. is there anything in the historical writings which have religious priests getting criminals/non criminals crucified hours before high holy day ? I’m thinking Matthew and Mark was understood without having to be titled until disparate geographical communities united in the triumph of Christianity. Paul himself indicates that there are all sorts of different Christian views on everything: he’s constantly fighting those who have “other” opinions on this, that, or the other thing. Romanism is a mandate delivered to Paul from the resurrected mouth of Jesus Christ: “The following night the Lord stood by him and said: Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11) Finally Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus - the man who became the Apostle Paul. In fact, that would seem like the most natural thing to do. While Jesus’ appearance to Paul may have been different in character from Christ’s pre-ascension appearances, this encounter with Paul was no merely subjective vision, as both Jesus’ voice (Acts 9:7) and the bright light (Acts 22:9) were perceived by Paul’s traveling companions. What is your position on Mark and Matthew being patrons? For me this one seems like grasping at straws. lol, Question: If I read it right, you seemed to imply that the “mythological” interpretation of the Bible (the Bible is not completely historical yet still reveals theological truths through its fictional, literary stories) was not as widely accepted among scholars as it used to be. Saul Paul was a man who was an antagonist to the Christian faith. Here Mark copies the terminology directly from Paul and incorporates it into his story. One would think so. Also, if the tradition of Matthias being chosen to replace Judas is historically true, then Matthias was one of the Twelve by the time Paul wrote about Jesus appearing to the Twelve. I’m guessing some are persuaded Jesus was James’s cousin because of what Eusebius and Jerome wrote about it. Maybe Paul just “forgot” there were only eleven left! The “chōrion” was to be Judas’ home, in other words. [13] There is general agreement that the list is pre-Pauline – it is often called a catechism of the early church – but less on how much of the list belongs to the tradition and how much is from Paul: most scholars feel that Peter and the Twelve are original, but not all believe the same of the appearances to the 500, James and "all the Apostles". Jesus appeared to Paul. the farm he has purchased for himself with the bribe money. It’s not impossible. Is there evidence that this is likely the case anywhere in the New Testament? Never happened. [41], David Friedrich Strauss (1808–1874), in his "Life of Jesus" (1835), argued that the resurrection was not an objective historical fact, but a subjective "recollection" of Jesus, transfiguring the dead Jesus into an imaginary, or "mythical," risen Christ. Why Finding an “Original” Text is So Unexpectedly Complicated. Perhaps this would kickstart the revolutionary showdown with the godless Romans. [33] Notable too is that the expectation of the imminent Second Coming has been delayed: it will still come about, but first the whole world must be gathered in. This Episode will play in: 10. Never mind Judas, how about Peter? Within the collection is a document that purports to be part of Eusebius’ work and is entitled “Concerning the Star; showing how and through what the Magi recognized the Star, and that Joseph did not take Mary as his wife.” There follows a lengthy account of the Magi’s visit to the infant Jesus followed by a comment on how the account was discovered around 119: “…in the second year of the coming of our Saviour, in the consulship of Caesar and of Capito, in the month of the latter Kanun, these Magi came from the East and worshipped our Lord at Bethlehem of the kings. But this reconciliation is unconvincing, first of all, because of Luke’s explicit wording that Judas purchased the field himself. The context of his report in Galatians concerns the content of the Gospel. Paul never identifies followers (disciples) of Jesus by name or nature. The gospels were not produced in their name because early manuscripts are not titled Matthew and Mark. When Jesus signaled Judas at the last supper to go and do quickly, Judas in his deluded and self absorbed mind may have thought he was actually doing the right thing in setting up the betrayal. Jesus and Judas have an et tu Brute? This is how all movements start out, religious, political, artistic. Which Greek word is used in the gospels? [13] Paul does not mention any appearances to women, apart from "sisters" included in the 500; other New Testament sources do not mention any appearance to a crowd of 500. He called himself an apostle. Whatever the legend or oral tradition may have initially been, Matthew appears to have reformulated it with an eye to certain passages from the OT prophets. So when Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 that the risen Christ appeared individually to both Peter and James, he was effectively saying “I know this because I have heard their story first hand”. The accounts of Paul's conversion experience describe it as miraculous, supernatural, or otherwise revelatory in nature. One option is that he heard it from a “prophet” who was “speaking the word of the Lord” at one of the weekly communion dinners. And so wouldn’t Paul’s continued ignorance on this score count as a reason for believing that the betrayal didn’t happen at all? Text fragments from Luke are found in John. [web 1], According to Biblical scholar Géza Vermes, the resurrection is to be understood as a reviving of the self-confidence of the followers of Jesus, under the influence of the Spirit, "prompting them to resume their apostolic mission." This lists, in chronological order, a first appearance to Peter, then to "the Twelve," then to five hundred at one time, then to James (presumably James the brother of Jesus), then to "all the Apostles," and last to Paul himself. Is he writing a complete history of Jesus’ life? He contends that the more detailed accounts of the resurrection are also secondary and do not come from historically trustworthy sources, but instead belong to the genre of the narrative types. Therefore, when Paul used “the twelve,” he could easily have been using the “designation” given for the disciples of Jesus. Whenever I read something that has, as it’s foundation, an “argument from silence”, I am immediately suspicious. In only one other New Testament book is there any reference to Judas’s death:  Acts 1:18-19. In Acts 23:16 Paul explains that when Jesus appeared to himself on the road to Damascus it was both “a light from heaven” and a “heavenly vision” (OURANIO OPTASIA). Paul is arrested for 'causing a disturbance.' Paul Arrested. Not necessarily from the inner circle, but hangers-on. I found this on Wikipedia regarding James as a cousin rather than a brother: “James, along with the others named “brothers” of Jesus, are said by others to have been Jesus’ cousins. After his conversion, we are told that Paul went into Arabia for 3 years (Gal 1:17-18), probably to study … This is why Paul describes himself as one “born out of time” (EKTROMA). But of course we don’t know anything about Timothy, so even saying he wrote it doesn’t get us too far — except to say that if one of Paul’s companions *did* write it, he was startlingly uniformed about Paul! I understand your interpretation, but I’d consider the text far too ambiguous to draw that conclusion. In John 20:18-24, Jesus appears to “the disciples,” who are subsequently equated with “the Twelve.” Then he says Thomas was not with them when Jesus appeared to “the disciples.” Mentioning a group of people may or may not mean that every member of that group is present. Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. [29] Paul has already moved away from this apocalyptic tradition towards a position where Christology and soteriology take precedence: Jesus is no longer the one who proclaims the message of the imminently coming Kingdom, he actually is the kingdom, the one in whom the kingdom of God is already present. The Life of Flavius Josephus– It’s no big deal, but the ultimate fate of Judas (per Matthew, Acts and Papias of Hierapolis) leaves me wondering exactly what happened to the guy. Eusebius and Jerome’s claim to James being a cousin of Jesus according to Wikipedia: Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 275 – 339) reports the tradition that James the Just was the son of Joseph’s brother Clopas and therefore was of the “brothers” (which he interprets as “cousin”) of Jesus described in the New Testament. But still, on balance, it’s likely that the story wasn’t made up from nothing, and that some close follower of Jesus did, as a matter of historical truth, inform the Romans of something that led to Jesus’s arrest. Not worth sticking his neck out and alienating people who either believe he was the world’s greatest traitor, or the disciple closest to Jesus–the one Jesus entrusted with a special mission. Even in this case, Dr Ehrman notes “If he [Paul] knew a lot, he certainly doesn’t *indicate* that he knew a lot”. Dr. Ehrman, Do you believe the term “The Twelve” goes back to the Jesus, meaning, it was his intension to hand pick twelve who would represent the twelve tribes? Yes, Mark and John both know it independently of one another, which is an argument in favor of its historicity. Christ Appearing to Over 500? The Greek word for cousin in ANEPSIOS. [31] Matthew presents Jesus' appearance in Galilee (Matthew 28:16–17) as a Greco-Roman apotheosis, the human body transformed to make it fitting for paradise. A reading of Acts 9:3-7, 22:6-9, and 26:13-15 shows that in those passages it is claimed Jesus "appeared" to Paul, but only in a blinding light and a disembodied voice. Mark knows there are only 11 disciples after the resurrection As Paul even states in Romans “…and thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation”. Jesus, the Christ: Appears to his Disciples, when Thomas Was Present (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to James and Also to all the Apostles (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to Paul (On the Road to Damascus) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to the Apostle John (On Patmos Island) We should also remember Josephus was the John Grisham of his day, Luke an obscure tractarian so Josephus could more easily get away with plagiarism. [48][50] [5], The Greeks, by contrast, had long held that a meritorious man could be resurrected as a god after his death (the process of apotheosis). [3] A few centuries later the Jewish historian Josephus, writing roughly in the same period as Paul and the authors of the gospels, says that the Essenes believed the soul to be immortal, so that while the body would return to dust the soul would go to a place fitting its moral character, righteous or wicked. Jesus had been preaching in the Temple, the hierarchy would have known all about him and Temple guards or Roman soldiers didn’t need Judas to point him out. "[42] Reflection on the Messianic hope, and Psalms 16:10,[note 2] led to an exalted state of mind, in which "the risen Christ" was present "in a visionary manner," concluding that Jesus must have escaped the bondage of death. Paul in Acts 22 tells Festus that the Road-to-Damascus Jesus appeared in a trance after the Road-to-Damascus appearance. Then again, a theory has been proposed that Judas was in on it all along, perhaps being his most trusted disciple. [27] Chapter 21, the appearance in Galilee, is widely believed to be a later addition to the original gospel. In other words, the true believers and followers of Christ will abandon their worldly possessions and sell their homes and farms for the greater good of the kingdom, while it is the apostate Judas who purchases an estate for himself, which becomes cursed as a result (Acts 1:20). generations of NT scholars to read the Gospels back into Paul and claim that, surely, these must have been the disciples of the Gospels. Two, it is not uncommon for people to incorrectly use similar (yet different) words interchangeably. According to Paul; Peter, the lead disciple of he Gospels, is not one of the twelve! So I don’t see how the argument being made in the Wikipedia article applies. Because in the very same passage he indicates that Christ appeared both to himself, individually, and to “all the apostles” (even though he considered himself to be an apostle). Does it ring a bell? But in that instance, it is not an outsider identifying the group, and that is usually thought to be significant. The Galilean appearances are not recorded in Mark and Luke but are described in Matthew 28:16–17 and John 21. There are 4 opinions on this “500 witnesses event”: The title of the work concerns the Magi and the star and that “Joseph did not take Mary as his wife” – but we do not find any narration of the virginity of Mary. a) we were supposed to have early Christianities from each of the 11 disciples. Considering Jesus’ underlying message of forgiveness, and the guilt of the other apostles (forsaking Jesus), is it feasible that Judas could have betrayed Jesus (with the intention of forcing his hand) and still remained one of the twelve? Yes, there are very sophisticated multi-spectral imaging technologies today for reading just this kind of manuscript; but I don’t know if they have been applied ot this one in particular. Remember how they argued among themselves who would be greatest and who would sit on Jesus right and left? One that is of special interest is 1 Corinthians 15:3-5: Jesus Appears to Paul. Maybe Paul had a bad (normal) memory and forgot whom he sent where. He’s separated out like Paul separated James out in his text. There is a long human tradition, and most especially with the colonized, of dealing summarily with informers. John also mentions the “sister” of the mother of Jesus, often identified with Mary of Clopas due to grammar. No, it’s simply saying that in addition to Matthew he had other traditions available to him. He contends that the "massive realism' [...] of the [Gospel] appearances themselves can only be described as visionary with great difficulty - and Luke would certainly reject the description as inappropriate," and that the earliest conception of resurrection in the Jerusalem Christian community was physical. 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(Mark 12:24–25, Luke 20:34–36). Please ask only one question per comment posted. The vision elevated this feeling of guilt, and Peter experienced it as a real appearance of Jesus, raised from dead. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know – God knows;"[17] Elsewhere in the Epistles Paul speaks of "glory" and "light" and the "face of Jesus Christ," and while the language is obscure it is plausible that he saw Jesus exalted, enthroned in heaven at the right hand of God. But more important, the issue you’re concerned with is whether *Paul* meant “cousin” when he said “brother,” and Paul was writing in GREEK, not Aramaic, and in fact it appears that he did not even know Aramaic. is there anything in the historical writings which have religious priests getting criminals/non criminals crucified hours before high holy day ? I’m thinking Matthew and Mark was understood without having to be titled until disparate geographical communities united in the triumph of Christianity. Paul himself indicates that there are all sorts of different Christian views on everything: he’s constantly fighting those who have “other” opinions on this, that, or the other thing. Romanism is a mandate delivered to Paul from the resurrected mouth of Jesus Christ: “The following night the Lord stood by him and said: Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11) Finally Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus - the man who became the Apostle Paul. In fact, that would seem like the most natural thing to do. While Jesus’ appearance to Paul may have been different in character from Christ’s pre-ascension appearances, this encounter with Paul was no merely subjective vision, as both Jesus’ voice (Acts 9:7) and the bright light (Acts 22:9) were perceived by Paul’s traveling companions. What is your position on Mark and Matthew being patrons? For me this one seems like grasping at straws. lol, Question: If I read it right, you seemed to imply that the “mythological” interpretation of the Bible (the Bible is not completely historical yet still reveals theological truths through its fictional, literary stories) was not as widely accepted among scholars as it used to be. Saul Paul was a man who was an antagonist to the Christian faith. Here Mark copies the terminology directly from Paul and incorporates it into his story. One would think so. Also, if the tradition of Matthias being chosen to replace Judas is historically true, then Matthias was one of the Twelve by the time Paul wrote about Jesus appearing to the Twelve. I’m guessing some are persuaded Jesus was James’s cousin because of what Eusebius and Jerome wrote about it. Maybe Paul just “forgot” there were only eleven left! The “chōrion” was to be Judas’ home, in other words. [13] There is general agreement that the list is pre-Pauline – it is often called a catechism of the early church – but less on how much of the list belongs to the tradition and how much is from Paul: most scholars feel that Peter and the Twelve are original, but not all believe the same of the appearances to the 500, James and "all the Apostles". Jesus appeared to Paul. the farm he has purchased for himself with the bribe money. It’s not impossible. Is there evidence that this is likely the case anywhere in the New Testament? Never happened. [41], David Friedrich Strauss (1808–1874), in his "Life of Jesus" (1835), argued that the resurrection was not an objective historical fact, but a subjective "recollection" of Jesus, transfiguring the dead Jesus into an imaginary, or "mythical," risen Christ. Why Finding an “Original” Text is So Unexpectedly Complicated. Perhaps this would kickstart the revolutionary showdown with the godless Romans. [33] Notable too is that the expectation of the imminent Second Coming has been delayed: it will still come about, but first the whole world must be gathered in. This Episode will play in: 10. Never mind Judas, how about Peter? Within the collection is a document that purports to be part of Eusebius’ work and is entitled “Concerning the Star; showing how and through what the Magi recognized the Star, and that Joseph did not take Mary as his wife.” There follows a lengthy account of the Magi’s visit to the infant Jesus followed by a comment on how the account was discovered around 119: “…in the second year of the coming of our Saviour, in the consulship of Caesar and of Capito, in the month of the latter Kanun, these Magi came from the East and worshipped our Lord at Bethlehem of the kings. But this reconciliation is unconvincing, first of all, because of Luke’s explicit wording that Judas purchased the field himself. The context of his report in Galatians concerns the content of the Gospel. Paul never identifies followers (disciples) of Jesus by name or nature. The gospels were not produced in their name because early manuscripts are not titled Matthew and Mark. When Jesus signaled Judas at the last supper to go and do quickly, Judas in his deluded and self absorbed mind may have thought he was actually doing the right thing in setting up the betrayal. Jesus and Judas have an et tu Brute? This is how all movements start out, religious, political, artistic. Which Greek word is used in the gospels? [13] Paul does not mention any appearances to women, apart from "sisters" included in the 500; other New Testament sources do not mention any appearance to a crowd of 500. He called himself an apostle. Whatever the legend or oral tradition may have initially been, Matthew appears to have reformulated it with an eye to certain passages from the OT prophets. So when Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 that the risen Christ appeared individually to both Peter and James, he was effectively saying “I know this because I have heard their story first hand”. The accounts of Paul's conversion experience describe it as miraculous, supernatural, or otherwise revelatory in nature. One option is that he heard it from a “prophet” who was “speaking the word of the Lord” at one of the weekly communion dinners. And so wouldn’t Paul’s continued ignorance on this score count as a reason for believing that the betrayal didn’t happen at all? Text fragments from Luke are found in John. [web 1], According to Biblical scholar Géza Vermes, the resurrection is to be understood as a reviving of the self-confidence of the followers of Jesus, under the influence of the Spirit, "prompting them to resume their apostolic mission." This lists, in chronological order, a first appearance to Peter, then to "the Twelve," then to five hundred at one time, then to James (presumably James the brother of Jesus), then to "all the Apostles," and last to Paul himself. Is he writing a complete history of Jesus’ life? He contends that the more detailed accounts of the resurrection are also secondary and do not come from historically trustworthy sources, but instead belong to the genre of the narrative types. Therefore, when Paul used “the twelve,” he could easily have been using the “designation” given for the disciples of Jesus. Whenever I read something that has, as it’s foundation, an “argument from silence”, I am immediately suspicious. In only one other New Testament book is there any reference to Judas’s death:  Acts 1:18-19. In Acts 23:16 Paul explains that when Jesus appeared to himself on the road to Damascus it was both “a light from heaven” and a “heavenly vision” (OURANIO OPTASIA). Paul is arrested for 'causing a disturbance.' Paul Arrested. Not necessarily from the inner circle, but hangers-on. I found this on Wikipedia regarding James as a cousin rather than a brother: “James, along with the others named “brothers” of Jesus, are said by others to have been Jesus’ cousins. After his conversion, we are told that Paul went into Arabia for 3 years (Gal 1:17-18), probably to study … This is why Paul describes himself as one “born out of time” (EKTROMA). But of course we don’t know anything about Timothy, so even saying he wrote it doesn’t get us too far — except to say that if one of Paul’s companions *did* write it, he was startlingly uniformed about Paul! I understand your interpretation, but I’d consider the text far too ambiguous to draw that conclusion. In John 20:18-24, Jesus appears to “the disciples,” who are subsequently equated with “the Twelve.” Then he says Thomas was not with them when Jesus appeared to “the disciples.” Mentioning a group of people may or may not mean that every member of that group is present. Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. [29] Paul has already moved away from this apocalyptic tradition towards a position where Christology and soteriology take precedence: Jesus is no longer the one who proclaims the message of the imminently coming Kingdom, he actually is the kingdom, the one in whom the kingdom of God is already present. The Life of Flavius Josephus– It’s no big deal, but the ultimate fate of Judas (per Matthew, Acts and Papias of Hierapolis) leaves me wondering exactly what happened to the guy. Eusebius and Jerome’s claim to James being a cousin of Jesus according to Wikipedia: Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 275 – 339) reports the tradition that James the Just was the son of Joseph’s brother Clopas and therefore was of the “brothers” (which he interprets as “cousin”) of Jesus described in the New Testament. But still, on balance, it’s likely that the story wasn’t made up from nothing, and that some close follower of Jesus did, as a matter of historical truth, inform the Romans of something that led to Jesus’s arrest. Not worth sticking his neck out and alienating people who either believe he was the world’s greatest traitor, or the disciple closest to Jesus–the one Jesus entrusted with a special mission. Even in this case, Dr Ehrman notes “If he [Paul] knew a lot, he certainly doesn’t *indicate* that he knew a lot”. Dr. Ehrman, Do you believe the term “The Twelve” goes back to the Jesus, meaning, it was his intension to hand pick twelve who would represent the twelve tribes? Yes, Mark and John both know it independently of one another, which is an argument in favor of its historicity. Christ Appearing to Over 500? The Greek word for cousin in ANEPSIOS. [31] Matthew presents Jesus' appearance in Galilee (Matthew 28:16–17) as a Greco-Roman apotheosis, the human body transformed to make it fitting for paradise. A reading of Acts 9:3-7, 22:6-9, and 26:13-15 shows that in those passages it is claimed Jesus "appeared" to Paul, but only in a blinding light and a disembodied voice. Mark knows there are only 11 disciples after the resurrection As Paul even states in Romans “…and thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation”. Jesus, the Christ: Appears to his Disciples, when Thomas Was Present (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to James and Also to all the Apostles (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to Paul (On the Road to Damascus) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to the Apostle John (On Patmos Island) We should also remember Josephus was the John Grisham of his day, Luke an obscure tractarian so Josephus could more easily get away with plagiarism. [48][50] [5], The Greeks, by contrast, had long held that a meritorious man could be resurrected as a god after his death (the process of apotheosis). [3] A few centuries later the Jewish historian Josephus, writing roughly in the same period as Paul and the authors of the gospels, says that the Essenes believed the soul to be immortal, so that while the body would return to dust the soul would go to a place fitting its moral character, righteous or wicked. Jesus had been preaching in the Temple, the hierarchy would have known all about him and Temple guards or Roman soldiers didn’t need Judas to point him out. "[42] Reflection on the Messianic hope, and Psalms 16:10,[note 2] led to an exalted state of mind, in which "the risen Christ" was present "in a visionary manner," concluding that Jesus must have escaped the bondage of death. Paul in Acts 22 tells Festus that the Road-to-Damascus Jesus appeared in a trance after the Road-to-Damascus appearance. Then again, a theory has been proposed that Judas was in on it all along, perhaps being his most trusted disciple. [27] Chapter 21, the appearance in Galilee, is widely believed to be a later addition to the original gospel. In other words, the true believers and followers of Christ will abandon their worldly possessions and sell their homes and farms for the greater good of the kingdom, while it is the apostate Judas who purchases an estate for himself, which becomes cursed as a result (Acts 1:20). generations of NT scholars to read the Gospels back into Paul and claim that, surely, these must have been the disciples of the Gospels. Two, it is not uncommon for people to incorrectly use similar (yet different) words interchangeably. According to Paul; Peter, the lead disciple of he Gospels, is not one of the twelve! So I don’t see how the argument being made in the Wikipedia article applies. Because in the very same passage he indicates that Christ appeared both to himself, individually, and to “all the apostles” (even though he considered himself to be an apostle). Does it ring a bell? But in that instance, it is not an outsider identifying the group, and that is usually thought to be significant. The Galilean appearances are not recorded in Mark and Luke but are described in Matthew 28:16–17 and John 21. There are 4 opinions on this “500 witnesses event”: The title of the work concerns the Magi and the star and that “Joseph did not take Mary as his wife” – but we do not find any narration of the virginity of Mary. a) we were supposed to have early Christianities from each of the 11 disciples. Considering Jesus’ underlying message of forgiveness, and the guilt of the other apostles (forsaking Jesus), is it feasible that Judas could have betrayed Jesus (with the intention of forcing his hand) and still remained one of the twelve? Yes, there are very sophisticated multi-spectral imaging technologies today for reading just this kind of manuscript; but I don’t know if they have been applied ot this one in particular. Remember how they argued among themselves who would be greatest and who would sit on Jesus right and left? One that is of special interest is 1 Corinthians 15:3-5: Jesus Appears to Paul. Maybe Paul had a bad (normal) memory and forgot whom he sent where. He’s separated out like Paul separated James out in his text. There is a long human tradition, and most especially with the colonized, of dealing summarily with informers. John also mentions the “sister” of the mother of Jesus, often identified with Mary of Clopas due to grammar. No, it’s simply saying that in addition to Matthew he had other traditions available to him. He contends that the "massive realism' [...] of the [Gospel] appearances themselves can only be described as visionary with great difficulty - and Luke would certainly reject the description as inappropriate," and that the earliest conception of resurrection in the Jerusalem Christian community was physical. 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The strength of his tradition would have needed a patron to convert the oral tradition into polished prose. DrEhrman September 17, 2019 at 8:14 amLog in to Reply. This is laughable, as I’ve pointed out above. He’d rather just avoid the whole subject. jogon January 19, 2020 at 7:48 amLog in to Reply. In 1Cor15 there is no clear indication that having an appearance means you automatically were an apostle. Luke might not have read it, but he would have heard some of the same stories Matthew was influenced by. 15:3-8), Sermon Summaries (Acts 2), Mark, Matthew, Luke, John, Clement of Rome, and Polycarp. 2 days earlier, they fear a possible riot from the people: “But not during the festival,” they said, “or the people may riot.”. The “Big Twelve” Conference has 10 teams. The appearances reach their climax with the Ascension of Jesus before the assembled disciples on a mountain outside Jerusalem. Mary of Nazareth and Mary of Clopas also need not be literally sisters, in light of the usage of the said words in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. Theory…Paul may not have talked much about the life and times of Jesus because he was heralding in the message of Christ:. It may be an example of Markan irony that a well known apocalyptic prophet like Jesus, who did such things as draw large crowds and have a triumphal entry into Jerusalem, needed one of his own to betray him to let the authorities know who he was (as though he was an unknown nobody). “Levi, the son of Alphaeus” would be James. I received by revelation from Jesus Christ") and from God ("God ... was pleased to reveal His son in me"). What Really Happened at Jesus’ Trial Before Pilate? I don’t think so. Suddenly, Superbook sends him to a time when Elijah battled the prophets of Baal, and showed the power of the one true God. I suspect this is the erased part, and given what follows appears to be an admission that the account of the Magi wasn’t included in the gospel of Matthew until 119 AD, perhaps the erased part admits that the virgin birth narrative found in Chapter 1 was also a late addition to the gospel – hence it’s removal. You could argue he was more necessary to the rise of Christendom than Peter or Paul. Paul Boards Ship. Appearance to Paul (Ac. [12], The earliest report of the post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus is in Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians. 9:1-9) Lastly, Jesus appeared after his ascension to Paul. Despite those potential problems, I think the matter would be clear in certain contexts. So nobody could really betray him, nobody could really kill him. In addition, Acts has appearances to Paul on the Road to Damascus, to the martyr Stephen, and to Peter, who hears the voice of Jesus. The Lord chose Paul … 12th of 12 Jesus appears to the disciples with another commission, Luke 24:44-49 & Acts 1:3-8. Apologies for going off-topic, but are you aware of the Nitrian collection (a bunch of Syriac material unearthed in Egyptian monasteries in the 1830s)? It’s funny how different people find various arguments persuasive or not. He convinced the other disciples that the resurrection of Jesus signalled that the endtime was near and God's Kingdom was coming, when the dead who would rise again, as evidenced by Jesus. in mark, the jews in 2 days are able to turn crowds against jesus. If Jesus’ appearance to Paul was a vision, why would anyone assume that his appearances to the other people weren’t visions also? I give some discussion to it in my book The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot. More From This Episode > [See All] Paul Shipwreck Song. Here is the 1 Cor 15:5 text: “and that he appeared to Cephas (Peter), THEN to the Nowhere did Paul ever say that Jesus’ resurrection was in the flesh… always in … Engaging Discussions about Early Christianity, Since April 2012, this blog has raised over. They’ve *already* heard the “Jesus story”, else, they wouldn’t be Christians, would they? The twelve are a mystery. [4] This, according to the gospels, was the stance of Jesus, who defended it in an exchange with the Sadducees: "Those who are accounted worthy ... to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they ... are equal to the angels and are children of God..." (Mark 12:24–25, Luke 20:34–36). Please ask only one question per comment posted. The vision elevated this feeling of guilt, and Peter experienced it as a real appearance of Jesus, raised from dead. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know – God knows;"[17] Elsewhere in the Epistles Paul speaks of "glory" and "light" and the "face of Jesus Christ," and while the language is obscure it is plausible that he saw Jesus exalted, enthroned in heaven at the right hand of God. But more important, the issue you’re concerned with is whether *Paul* meant “cousin” when he said “brother,” and Paul was writing in GREEK, not Aramaic, and in fact it appears that he did not even know Aramaic. is there anything in the historical writings which have religious priests getting criminals/non criminals crucified hours before high holy day ? I’m thinking Matthew and Mark was understood without having to be titled until disparate geographical communities united in the triumph of Christianity. Paul himself indicates that there are all sorts of different Christian views on everything: he’s constantly fighting those who have “other” opinions on this, that, or the other thing. Romanism is a mandate delivered to Paul from the resurrected mouth of Jesus Christ: “The following night the Lord stood by him and said: Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11) Finally Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus - the man who became the Apostle Paul. In fact, that would seem like the most natural thing to do. While Jesus’ appearance to Paul may have been different in character from Christ’s pre-ascension appearances, this encounter with Paul was no merely subjective vision, as both Jesus’ voice (Acts 9:7) and the bright light (Acts 22:9) were perceived by Paul’s traveling companions. What is your position on Mark and Matthew being patrons? For me this one seems like grasping at straws. lol, Question: If I read it right, you seemed to imply that the “mythological” interpretation of the Bible (the Bible is not completely historical yet still reveals theological truths through its fictional, literary stories) was not as widely accepted among scholars as it used to be. Saul Paul was a man who was an antagonist to the Christian faith. Here Mark copies the terminology directly from Paul and incorporates it into his story. One would think so. Also, if the tradition of Matthias being chosen to replace Judas is historically true, then Matthias was one of the Twelve by the time Paul wrote about Jesus appearing to the Twelve. I’m guessing some are persuaded Jesus was James’s cousin because of what Eusebius and Jerome wrote about it. Maybe Paul just “forgot” there were only eleven left! The “chōrion” was to be Judas’ home, in other words. [13] There is general agreement that the list is pre-Pauline – it is often called a catechism of the early church – but less on how much of the list belongs to the tradition and how much is from Paul: most scholars feel that Peter and the Twelve are original, but not all believe the same of the appearances to the 500, James and "all the Apostles". Jesus appeared to Paul. the farm he has purchased for himself with the bribe money. It’s not impossible. Is there evidence that this is likely the case anywhere in the New Testament? Never happened. [41], David Friedrich Strauss (1808–1874), in his "Life of Jesus" (1835), argued that the resurrection was not an objective historical fact, but a subjective "recollection" of Jesus, transfiguring the dead Jesus into an imaginary, or "mythical," risen Christ. Why Finding an “Original” Text is So Unexpectedly Complicated. Perhaps this would kickstart the revolutionary showdown with the godless Romans. [33] Notable too is that the expectation of the imminent Second Coming has been delayed: it will still come about, but first the whole world must be gathered in. This Episode will play in: 10. Never mind Judas, how about Peter? Within the collection is a document that purports to be part of Eusebius’ work and is entitled “Concerning the Star; showing how and through what the Magi recognized the Star, and that Joseph did not take Mary as his wife.” There follows a lengthy account of the Magi’s visit to the infant Jesus followed by a comment on how the account was discovered around 119: “…in the second year of the coming of our Saviour, in the consulship of Caesar and of Capito, in the month of the latter Kanun, these Magi came from the East and worshipped our Lord at Bethlehem of the kings. But this reconciliation is unconvincing, first of all, because of Luke’s explicit wording that Judas purchased the field himself. The context of his report in Galatians concerns the content of the Gospel. Paul never identifies followers (disciples) of Jesus by name or nature. The gospels were not produced in their name because early manuscripts are not titled Matthew and Mark. When Jesus signaled Judas at the last supper to go and do quickly, Judas in his deluded and self absorbed mind may have thought he was actually doing the right thing in setting up the betrayal. Jesus and Judas have an et tu Brute? This is how all movements start out, religious, political, artistic. Which Greek word is used in the gospels? [13] Paul does not mention any appearances to women, apart from "sisters" included in the 500; other New Testament sources do not mention any appearance to a crowd of 500. He called himself an apostle. Whatever the legend or oral tradition may have initially been, Matthew appears to have reformulated it with an eye to certain passages from the OT prophets. So when Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15 that the risen Christ appeared individually to both Peter and James, he was effectively saying “I know this because I have heard their story first hand”. The accounts of Paul's conversion experience describe it as miraculous, supernatural, or otherwise revelatory in nature. One option is that he heard it from a “prophet” who was “speaking the word of the Lord” at one of the weekly communion dinners. And so wouldn’t Paul’s continued ignorance on this score count as a reason for believing that the betrayal didn’t happen at all? Text fragments from Luke are found in John. [web 1], According to Biblical scholar Géza Vermes, the resurrection is to be understood as a reviving of the self-confidence of the followers of Jesus, under the influence of the Spirit, "prompting them to resume their apostolic mission." This lists, in chronological order, a first appearance to Peter, then to "the Twelve," then to five hundred at one time, then to James (presumably James the brother of Jesus), then to "all the Apostles," and last to Paul himself. Is he writing a complete history of Jesus’ life? He contends that the more detailed accounts of the resurrection are also secondary and do not come from historically trustworthy sources, but instead belong to the genre of the narrative types. Therefore, when Paul used “the twelve,” he could easily have been using the “designation” given for the disciples of Jesus. Whenever I read something that has, as it’s foundation, an “argument from silence”, I am immediately suspicious. In only one other New Testament book is there any reference to Judas’s death:  Acts 1:18-19. In Acts 23:16 Paul explains that when Jesus appeared to himself on the road to Damascus it was both “a light from heaven” and a “heavenly vision” (OURANIO OPTASIA). Paul is arrested for 'causing a disturbance.' Paul Arrested. Not necessarily from the inner circle, but hangers-on. I found this on Wikipedia regarding James as a cousin rather than a brother: “James, along with the others named “brothers” of Jesus, are said by others to have been Jesus’ cousins. After his conversion, we are told that Paul went into Arabia for 3 years (Gal 1:17-18), probably to study … This is why Paul describes himself as one “born out of time” (EKTROMA). But of course we don’t know anything about Timothy, so even saying he wrote it doesn’t get us too far — except to say that if one of Paul’s companions *did* write it, he was startlingly uniformed about Paul! I understand your interpretation, but I’d consider the text far too ambiguous to draw that conclusion. In John 20:18-24, Jesus appears to “the disciples,” who are subsequently equated with “the Twelve.” Then he says Thomas was not with them when Jesus appeared to “the disciples.” Mentioning a group of people may or may not mean that every member of that group is present. Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. [29] Paul has already moved away from this apocalyptic tradition towards a position where Christology and soteriology take precedence: Jesus is no longer the one who proclaims the message of the imminently coming Kingdom, he actually is the kingdom, the one in whom the kingdom of God is already present. The Life of Flavius Josephus– It’s no big deal, but the ultimate fate of Judas (per Matthew, Acts and Papias of Hierapolis) leaves me wondering exactly what happened to the guy. Eusebius and Jerome’s claim to James being a cousin of Jesus according to Wikipedia: Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 275 – 339) reports the tradition that James the Just was the son of Joseph’s brother Clopas and therefore was of the “brothers” (which he interprets as “cousin”) of Jesus described in the New Testament. But still, on balance, it’s likely that the story wasn’t made up from nothing, and that some close follower of Jesus did, as a matter of historical truth, inform the Romans of something that led to Jesus’s arrest. Not worth sticking his neck out and alienating people who either believe he was the world’s greatest traitor, or the disciple closest to Jesus–the one Jesus entrusted with a special mission. Even in this case, Dr Ehrman notes “If he [Paul] knew a lot, he certainly doesn’t *indicate* that he knew a lot”. Dr. Ehrman, Do you believe the term “The Twelve” goes back to the Jesus, meaning, it was his intension to hand pick twelve who would represent the twelve tribes? Yes, Mark and John both know it independently of one another, which is an argument in favor of its historicity. Christ Appearing to Over 500? The Greek word for cousin in ANEPSIOS. [31] Matthew presents Jesus' appearance in Galilee (Matthew 28:16–17) as a Greco-Roman apotheosis, the human body transformed to make it fitting for paradise. A reading of Acts 9:3-7, 22:6-9, and 26:13-15 shows that in those passages it is claimed Jesus "appeared" to Paul, but only in a blinding light and a disembodied voice. Mark knows there are only 11 disciples after the resurrection As Paul even states in Romans “…and thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation”. Jesus, the Christ: Appears to his Disciples, when Thomas Was Present (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to James and Also to all the Apostles (In Jerusalem) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to Paul (On the Road to Damascus) Jesus, the Christ: Appears to the Apostle John (On Patmos Island) We should also remember Josephus was the John Grisham of his day, Luke an obscure tractarian so Josephus could more easily get away with plagiarism. [48][50] [5], The Greeks, by contrast, had long held that a meritorious man could be resurrected as a god after his death (the process of apotheosis). [3] A few centuries later the Jewish historian Josephus, writing roughly in the same period as Paul and the authors of the gospels, says that the Essenes believed the soul to be immortal, so that while the body would return to dust the soul would go to a place fitting its moral character, righteous or wicked. Jesus had been preaching in the Temple, the hierarchy would have known all about him and Temple guards or Roman soldiers didn’t need Judas to point him out. "[42] Reflection on the Messianic hope, and Psalms 16:10,[note 2] led to an exalted state of mind, in which "the risen Christ" was present "in a visionary manner," concluding that Jesus must have escaped the bondage of death. Paul in Acts 22 tells Festus that the Road-to-Damascus Jesus appeared in a trance after the Road-to-Damascus appearance. Then again, a theory has been proposed that Judas was in on it all along, perhaps being his most trusted disciple. [27] Chapter 21, the appearance in Galilee, is widely believed to be a later addition to the original gospel. In other words, the true believers and followers of Christ will abandon their worldly possessions and sell their homes and farms for the greater good of the kingdom, while it is the apostate Judas who purchases an estate for himself, which becomes cursed as a result (Acts 1:20). generations of NT scholars to read the Gospels back into Paul and claim that, surely, these must have been the disciples of the Gospels. Two, it is not uncommon for people to incorrectly use similar (yet different) words interchangeably. According to Paul; Peter, the lead disciple of he Gospels, is not one of the twelve! So I don’t see how the argument being made in the Wikipedia article applies. Because in the very same passage he indicates that Christ appeared both to himself, individually, and to “all the apostles” (even though he considered himself to be an apostle). Does it ring a bell? But in that instance, it is not an outsider identifying the group, and that is usually thought to be significant. The Galilean appearances are not recorded in Mark and Luke but are described in Matthew 28:16–17 and John 21. There are 4 opinions on this “500 witnesses event”: The title of the work concerns the Magi and the star and that “Joseph did not take Mary as his wife” – but we do not find any narration of the virginity of Mary. a) we were supposed to have early Christianities from each of the 11 disciples. Considering Jesus’ underlying message of forgiveness, and the guilt of the other apostles (forsaking Jesus), is it feasible that Judas could have betrayed Jesus (with the intention of forcing his hand) and still remained one of the twelve? Yes, there are very sophisticated multi-spectral imaging technologies today for reading just this kind of manuscript; but I don’t know if they have been applied ot this one in particular. Remember how they argued among themselves who would be greatest and who would sit on Jesus right and left? One that is of special interest is 1 Corinthians 15:3-5: Jesus Appears to Paul. Maybe Paul had a bad (normal) memory and forgot whom he sent where. He’s separated out like Paul separated James out in his text. There is a long human tradition, and most especially with the colonized, of dealing summarily with informers. John also mentions the “sister” of the mother of Jesus, often identified with Mary of Clopas due to grammar. No, it’s simply saying that in addition to Matthew he had other traditions available to him. He contends that the "massive realism' [...] of the [Gospel] appearances themselves can only be described as visionary with great difficulty - and Luke would certainly reject the description as inappropriate," and that the earliest conception of resurrection in the Jerusalem Christian community was physical. 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